Sound: New features and license issues

[Trumgottist]

I want to add more sound and music functionality to SLUDGE, but I need to hear what you have to say about it first.

First a bit of background to explain things for those new to SLUDGE (or for those who, like me, were a bit fuzzy on the details).

In order to play sounds, SLUDGE uses a third-party audio library called BASS. This library is free to use for non-commercial use, and Tim made a deal with the BASS people that allows people to release their SLUDGE games as shareware (i.e. you're an individual and not a corporation asking for money for it) without the need for a BASS license. This deal is dependent on the limited sound functionality in SLUDGE, so if we add any new functionality regarding sound or music (as I want to do) it's no longer valid and any non-freeware production would have to get their own license. (€100 for a shareware license, per platform. €200 to cover Mac+Win+Linux. For details see the website of BASS.)

While I do have some ideas (added interactivity to music, effects on sounds), I haven't got detailed thoughts on what I'd specifically like to add, since I figured it would be best to have this discussion first as it affects anyone planning to ask money for their game. (I think Erwin has such plans? Anyone else?) But one thing I would like to investigate further are the features dealing with interactive music in FMOD Ex, which is another audio library similar to BASS. Like BASS, it is free for non-commercial use, but like BASS it would require anyone charging for their game to get a license for it. (Their shareware/hobbyist license is $100 USD per platform, with a multi-platform discount, so it's similar to BASS.)

So… thoughts? Are you ok with the idea of having to pay a license for an audio library if you want to charge for your game? That's the basic question that needs to be answered before we can move on to thinking about what any new audio features would be.

[BigMc]

Another disadvantage is that this increases the dependency on the library. You would loose the possibility of replacing the library with another one later.

[Erwin_Br]

I'm not a fan of being dependent on third parties when it comes to licensing issues.

At the moment I've dropped the idea of selling Bad Timing, but still. I might decide to ask a very small amount for it (0,99?), just because of curiosity or some kind of feeling of recognition that the game is worth something. I don't know.

Also, there's been a lot of uproar about this licensing stuff. I remember that too well from the discussions we had on the original SLUDGE forum. I think many people don't feel comfortable with it, for whatever reasons.

So, if possible, I would try to find an non-commercial alternative, or stick with what we have. Unless there's a demand for more audio features. The only audio-related feature I would love to see is the ability to pause/replace the talk animation during silent parts of an audio file, to get some sort of semi- lip-sync. Of course I have no clue if this is even possible...

[Kieran Millar]

Didn't SLUDGE originally use FMOD and then got rid of it for precisely this reason? (At least, that's what this page says). Or is FMOD Ex different to FMOD in some way?

When it comes to totally free audio libraries, does anyone know what's available and what sort of things you miss out on compared to commercial libraries. The only one I'm aware of that I think is free is Ogg Vorbis, but then that doesn't allow any track based music at all if the game sticks with just .ogg and .wav files. I suppose .mid is free too, but it's ass compared to other track based music file types.

Of course, libraries that are limited to one OS (such as Direct X (Yes that's more of a graphics thing, shhh)) are out of the question, so I have no idea.

To answer your question, I may never release a game in SLUDGE that I would charge money for, so it doesn't bother me, but I'd prefer a library without licensing issues.

[Erwin_Br]

Didn't SLUDGE originally use FMOD and then got rid of it for precisely this reason? (At least, that's what this page says). Or is FMOD Ex different to FMOD in some way?

Yes, SLUDGE at one time used FMOD. We were also able to play back Midi files back then.

After some discussions with SLUDGE users Tim changed to BASS because the developers were more lenient.

[Squinky]

For me, it depends on whether funding a game using Kickstarter then releasing it for free would be considered by them to be freeware or shareware...

[BigMc]

We discussed about the free alternatives here. Right now we found no free one that provides all of the functionality SLUDGE uses now. SDL mixer lacks the ability to play mo3 files and more than one module track at a time.

But neither BASS nor FMOD or SDL mixer are limited to one OS.

[Erwin_Br]

Licensing terms for Fmod:

•License fee is $100 USD per product
•The target platform is restricted to PC (PC is classified as WinCE, Win32, Linux or Macintosh)
•As with the full commercial license pricing information above, the multi-platform discount applies, but all platforms are based on the $100 price point across the board.



Conditions/Limitations
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

•Shareware licenses are approved on a case by case basis to verify they qualify for budget or shareware status.
•The licensee must be an individual / partnership with a hobby or shareware product with a very low price point (ie $10), and must not be a registered business or company with employees.
•No source code or other materials are provided with this license.
•When using FMOD, a credit line is required in either documentation, or 'on screen' format (if possible). It should contain at least the words 'FMOD Sound System' and 'Firelight Technologies'. Logos are available for box or manual art, but are not mandatory. An example credit could be:

FMOD Sound System, copyright © Firelight Technologies Pty, Ltd., 1994-2009.

Note this in advance, as it must be done before shipping your product with FMOD.

[ad7venture]

The only way I would think of financially doing something is with advertising up to this point anyway.  I think something like going through Bigfish would be possible for an adventure game of this type.  Most people don't like commercial sound libraries because they're afraid of some loophole or something where they come back on you later.  I don't think the 100 dollars is unreasonable.   I think I heard fmod does spectrum analysis so it could theoretically do what Erwin was talking about, which I think would be cool if it could be set up because I've tried the full parsing and it's a lot of work.
That case by case basis of the approval sounds like a definite pain for fmod.  I guess personally, if you have that deal with Bass, I would stick with it because adventure games don't need to get that fancy with music and it's less red tape.  There might be a question as to whether the open source version still applies to the agreement, though.

[JenniBee]

At this point, I have not decided if I am going to sell my game.  If I did it would be for a small amount (between $1 and $5).

A license fee is out of my reach at the moment, especially if I have to pay per platform. 

[Trumgottist]

I find it sad and depressing that people are so uninterested in sound and music. Several answers to my post, and not a single one is positive to adding more audio features.

Nothing new it is then, as (for better and worse) I'm not the only one using this engine. I'll wait with experimenting with that until I do a non-SLUDGE project.

[ad7venture]

You have to look at these as usually done by one person or a very small team.  They're trying to get together presentable art, write stories, design puzzles, and possibly add some background music or voice acting.  It would be nice if it didn't bring extra licensing issues, but for most, sound is that last thing you add to a game if you are even able.  I've heard people talk about this sound that dynamically changes but it's pretty much over my head.  We're low budget authors in a niche genre.  Some people have managed to make a little money with them, but I don't think it's a lot.

[Trumgottist]

for most, sound is that last thing you add to a game if you are even able. 

I can understand people being reluctant about having to pay to use the engine if they're charging for their games. I don't agree, but I can see their point of view. But the attitude that sound is unimportant just makes me sad.

[Erwin_Br]

I find it sad and depressing that people are so uninterested in sound and music. Several answers to my post, and not a single one is positive to adding more audio features.

Nothing new it is then, as (for better and worse) I'm not the only one using this engine. I'll wait with experimenting with that until I do a non-SLUDGE project.

It's not that I'm uninterested in music and sound. I would love to pull something off like LucasArts did with their iMuse system, for example. But to be honest, I'm already relieved if I'll find someone who is willing and able to compose for me. (I'm a terrible composer).  

But I agree that music and sound are grossly underestimated. Not only by developers, but also by players. (I once read a thread at an adventure forum where many people said they always turn off music and even the voices. Talk about depressing, from a developers point of view!)

[Erwin_Br]

Not willing to pay is one thing, but you'll also have to be able to afford it. Personally, I have no problem with it at all. I've invested a lot more in engines and authoring software licenses.

If you want to know why I specifically have questions about Fmod, it's because of their history with Tim, and more importantly, their license agreement. When I read things like "Shareware licenses are approved on a case by case basis", I get suspicious. 

EDIT: I just hit the edit button of the wrong post, sorry. I hope I didn't change anything. It appears not.