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Author Topic: Out Of Order retrospective - A-hunting pixels we shall go  (Read 10045 times)
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« on: July 25, 2009, 07:19:10 AM »

Tell us what you think! You can read and leave comments about Out Of Order retrospective - A-hunting pixels we shall go below...
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Trumgottist
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2009, 07:45:10 AM »

Mostly conventional wisdom in this one. Good to keep in mind, but things I've read rants about before.

Except for the comment about locked doors. It makes sense, but I haven't thought about it like that before. Thanks!

And I agree about the cassette deck puzzle implementation in OOO. It could have been smoother, and I was confused by it for a while. We as game designers should let the players communicate their ideas to the game as easily as possible. (There's another lesson lurking in here too: Listen to your beta testers!)

I think the Stuff-Stik is fair. It probably would have been too pixel-hunterly if it had been in another location, but this is a limited area players will spend time in (in my case, I think it was quite a while) before the game opens up. This location will be thoroughly searched.
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2009, 09:18:07 AM »

I should probably go back and play this game.  I got stuck in it and didn't finish.  I think it had something to do with the store because I never found anything in it.  Not sure, though.  One place I disagree with the article is the pen comment.  Certainly it would have been more realistic to borrow a pen from someone, but adventures are puzzle games, not simulations.  I've heard a lot of people complain that things should work some way or other because that would happen in real life, but of course, it would also be very boring if there were no challenges in the game.  Puzzles in adventures only use reality as a framework for a puzzle, so it can be understood.  If there is a paper that needs filling out then it stands to reason there is a writing utensil somewhere to be found.  That gives a clue on what we need to solve the puzzle.  I think the other puzzle using the cassette could have been clearer,  however, it makes a much better puzzle and has a lot of imagination compared to just putting one piece onto another like using a key on a door.  Those puzzles are much harder to design but are more enjoyable to play and I think we should strive for more of that type.
Having something stand out enough so we don't have to slowly move the mouse across the graphics is important because it makes the game very tedious if it's poorly done. It's very hard to do unfortunately.  We should, at the least, put over sized hot spots on small items.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 09:44:00 AM by ad7venture » Logged
Kickaha
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2009, 05:37:23 AM »

Adventure games shouldn't be simulations I agree there, but I don't like games where you end up trying every object on every other object.  So if I have a book I can read it, yes, I can burn it, yes, but I wouldn't expect say to unlock doors with it.
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2009, 03:06:26 PM »

Yes, puzzles should be logical.  Of course, it is kind of fun to see things used in logical but strange ways once in a while.  I usually end up using everything on everything when that happens, but then laugh when the answer makes sense.  Like when you're looking for a pen but end up using a feather dipped in some blue liquid you have to make yourself.  It gives adventures a little character.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 03:08:52 PM by ad7venture » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2009, 04:46:17 PM »

Writing with a feather is very reasonable! 
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Erwin_Br
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2009, 05:01:24 PM »

I agree! Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 08:06:40 PM »

Back to pixel hunts.  I played one game a while back that had a shortcut key that would light up all the hot spots in the screen.  Not a bad idea, really. 
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 03:10:57 AM »

Back to pixel hunts.  I played one game a while back that had a shortcut key that would light up all the hot spots in the screen.  Not a bad idea, really.

One of the 2D Simon The Sorcerer games did this, I think. Don't know if that's the one you mean. I kind of felt that it was a way of making fewer things interactive. There was a lot of clutter in some rooms, a lot of potentially interesting things, so the issue wasn't finding hidden objects, it was picking which clearly visible objects could be investigated further. Some people may have solved the issue by making the usable objects brighter or more obvious in the scene, or removing some clutter, or having more objects in the scene interactive and having the resulting dialogue reference the thing with which you actually need to interact. They solved the problem by putting a big X on the interactive thing when you pressed a key on the keyboard. Yes, it solved the "How was I meant to know that of all the things on that bench, THAT was the thing I was meant to be looking at?" issue, but it was hardly elegant.

More recently, although it's not exactly the same kind of adventure game in the slightest, Little Wheel highlights all of the interactive bits of each scene, although it's arguable slightly more needed there as pretty much everything's a silhouette.

In any case, it only really solves half of the problem. I guess the point I was trying to make was that if you wound up not having collected an item in a game for one reason or another (such as the pen in OoO) and got to the point where you need to use it, there are rarely any clues as to where you should go to find the item. Highlighting the objects in a room only helps once you walk into each room. (And you still have to walk left and right if it's a scrolling room.)
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 06:34:18 AM »

Quote
In any case, it only really solves half of the problem. I guess the point I was trying to make was that if you wound up not having collected an item in a game for one reason or another (such as the pen in OoO) and got to the point where you need to use it, there are rarely any clues as to where you should go to find the item. Highlighting the objects in a room only helps once you walk into each room. (And you still have to walk left and right if it's a scrolling room.)

I agree, that's the main reason I've never done anything like that.  I think the best solution is to design the puzzles so that the things needed to solve it are relatively close at hand.  It's not too bad to wander back over a few screens and look for something that might have been missed, however, if it's potentially 20 or 30 screens, then it becomes a walk through situation.  The little ways to set something off, like making them a little brighter, putting a crack or other distinguishing feature on it, or eliminating clutter, are really better in my mind.
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 07:45:19 AM »

Thanks for posting here Tim, it's good to see what you have to say.

How far game designers should go in helping the player in situations like the pen is an interesting question.  When do you feel if they can't find the pen they'll check a walkthrough?
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2009, 08:55:54 AM »

That's impossible to answer because it differs from person to person.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2009, 04:39:12 PM »

Triggered by the article I was thinking about how we as game creators think about the players.  If they missed the pen in OOO is a good example - one approach is to say tough, if they're stuck they'll cheat.  There compromises to be made.
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TimFurnish
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 12:28:16 PM »

Triggered by the article I was thinking about how we as game creators think about the players.  If they missed the pen in OOO is a good example - one approach is to say tough, if they're stuck they'll cheat.  There compromises to be made.

More and more people seem to be wiring hint systems straight into their games, and in a lot of ways, I don't think it's a bad idea. That way, if someone's stuck and needs a walkthrough, they don't need to quit or minimise the game and go online to find one (or dig out the saved HTML page on their machine, or whatever) - they just use the built in one. It's a bit of extra work for the designers/coders, sure, but probably worth it to make sure people don't wander off. It's also really, really helpful if you've not played a game for 2 months to be able to come back and see what tasks you were trying to complete.

Obviously, you don't want to access the thing (from a pause menu or hotkey or something) and get the solution thrown in your face, but some kind of hierarchical layered thing would be ideal. Again, using the pen in OoO as an example, SPOILERALERTSPOILERALERT, I imagine if a hint system were available from the pause menu, it'd start of showing:

CURRENT TASKS:

* Continue "testing" the Towndate electronically-determined-romantic-compatibility system.
* <Whatever else is currently going on>


Clicking any option will show you the next level of hints that you need to do to in order to reach that goal, stopping at any subtask which isn't yet completed. The entire tree for the pen-related puzzle would be something like:

* Continue "testing" the Towndate electronically-determined-romantic-compatibility system.
   * You've got the forms. You'll need some people to fill them in.
      * Specifically, you'll need TWO people to fill them in.
         * <Further hints about finding people to fill the forms in>
   * Are the people who've filled the forms in compatible?
      * Reading both the forms will tell you whether they're compatible or not.
   * Maybe you should make sure they'll be matched up by the computer system.
      * You'll need to make the forms list the same hobbies and interests as one another.
         * For that, you'll need a pen.
            * Not got a pen? There must be one around somewhere.
               * Someone who owns books full of word puzzles probably has a pen.
                  * An office block is a handy place for pilfering stationery.
                     * There's a pen on the top of the bookshelf in the meeting organiser's office.
         * Use the pen on each of the forms to write in some additional details.
   * Now you just need to get the details read into the Towndate system.
      * Return the completed forms to the place where you got them.
         * Show each form to the talking computer on your floor.

Other benefits of including something like this in your game is that you can explain your bonkers logic to people, and make it seem like everything you're asking them to do could have been deduced if they'd just spent 30 more seconds thinking about it. And only the tasks and hints which are followed by some other item at the same level in the tree (i.e. the things above in italics) would need to get marked as 'done' by the game, so it wouldn't take too much slotting into the existing code and scripts and stuff. For example, in the list above, I make that number to be 5.

Granted, all this information could also be made available through other means - talking to people, the player character talking to himself - but some hints and clues are probably a bit tricky to work into a conversation or monologue.

Anyway, that's my brainstorming on the subject, and yet another thing which could have been thrown into OoO if I'd thought of it then and if I'd had the time.
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Kickaha
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« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2009, 07:08:14 AM »

How much time one has is a limiting factor.  Finishing making a game is a challenge enough for me!

In game hint systems great.  The hierarchical UHS-like system you outlined Tim would be very welcome.  My satisfaction as a player is decreased if I have to go out of the game to solve.

You mentioned giving hints through conversation.  I'd hope some commercial game might experiment by depending on what tasks / sub-tasks the player was working on varying the dialogue choices with NPCs.  Don't think that's impossible.
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