Today I understood that puzzles matter

[deadworm222]

This post will spoil the games Grim Fandango and Cirque de Zale.

Puzzles in amateur games suck. The main problem is not that too many puzzles are of the I-give-you-the-scissors-so-you'll-give-me-the-electronic-monkey -variety. It is only a part of the problem. The real problem is that those puzzles just don't fit in the plot. At all.

Let me compare Grim Fandango with Cirque de Zale.

In Grim Fandango there's a puzzle in which you need to help the Lost Souls Alliance by getting them a replica of Manny's teeth and a few pigeon eggs. In return the leader of the LSA will let Manny continue his quest. The LSA has already played and will play a major part in the later development of the plot, and you solving the puzzle has a real meaning in the development of the story.

In Cirque de Zale there's a puzzle in which you need to give a basket of goodies to a random pimp. In return the pimp will... I don't remember what it was, but I'm sure it wasn't that necessary or important. She'll help you somehow.

There is no difference in the basic structure of those puzzles. However, the pimp is just a random person thrown out to the streets. After the first encounter you will never see her again. The pimp doesn't tell you anything that would help you with the game later on, and it isn't really an integral part of the plot.

Another example is from the award-winning game Apprentice II. None of the puzzles actually are a part of the story. In fact, you solve a number of puzzles that have nothing to do with the plot in order to make the plot progress. The game can be fun, but it's not very good game design.

Simply put, we have to get rid of making these parody adventure games. Apprentice II was otherwise very good and well developed as a game, but its puzzles has very little to do with the plot itself.

What do you think?

Off topic: Recently I've been thinking about making the ultimate parody game (or rather, a demo of it, to keep it short). It would be the most disgusting game ever, copying the worst games made. I have only planned a part of it - the voice actors should be as emotionless as Nico in Broken Sword 3, and the dialogue should be as obscure as in Post Mortem. Unfortunately recruiting a talented enough artist for such a game would be problematic...

[Erwin_Br]

Well, I think that's one of the most difficult things in adventure game design. I think most people write a story first, and when they finish it they start putting in obstructions to delay the player from progressing through that story. A fairly simple process.

It's much more difficult to design puzzles while you're writing the story, to let the puzzles be an integral part of the story. I guess that's the art of a good adventure developer.

What I do is cutting the story into little pieces, which makes it a bit easier to design the integrated puzzles. It's nearly impossible (for me, at least) to work on the entire story at once. Cutting it down makes it easier to oversee.

--Erwin

[deadworm222]

When designing my game, I think about the main theme of the game, and the beginning and the ending, and why my story should be a game and not a novel. Actually, I have a bunch of puzzle templates and I try to build a story around those. I try to design things simultaneously.

[Dark-Land Productions]

oh Dude your soo right about the Puzzle problem, and the parody thing is a kick ass idea, so, if your looking, I'd do voices for it if you wanted, I can be one of the most boring people on the planet and since I'm english, my accent can sound plain anyway, so if your interested, Email me at dungeon_hacker@msn.com :great:  

[Dark-Land Productions]

Wil the graphics by shitely computer drawn or the old style, pixelated yet great. I suggested Computer drawn in the modern style of shite everyones doing now

[Vel]

In my opinion, the traditional puzzles-story progress-puzzles-story progress-puzzles should have been long gone, and is one of the reasons that adventure games drifted away from the main gaming scene in the first place. Okay, so great games from the beginning of the 90s used it. That doesn't mean you have to make another DOTT, another Monkey island or King's Quest. My point is that the player should progress with the story while solving the puzzles. And the puzzles themselves should be what the player would do in the situation - inventory puzzles are far overrated and overused in my opinion. One would not pick up every piece of junk he sees just because it might come in handy.
Always strive for the new and do not try to copy something that has been done before. Take it further.

[deadworm222]

I think that the process of solving the puzzles should uncover the story, bit by bit.

[DCW]

I think that the process of solving the puzzles should uncover the story, bit by bit.

But isn't that how most adventures play anyway? Even the amateur ones?

[deadworm222]

I think that the process of solving the puzzles should uncover the story, bit by bit.

But isn't that how most adventures play anyway? Even the amateur ones?

I tried to say in my first post that not really. Some of the puzzles in amateur games are totally unrelated to the actual story, or at least thay feel that way. Ideally, I think, all puzzles should be a part of the main story OR an interesting back story. The story of Carla in Grim Fandango is interesting. The pimp in Cirque de Zale is not. Also, too many games use cutscenes extensively. What I mean is that after solving those three puzzles that are completely unrelated to the game itself (for example: in Apprentice II, how is the story of the centaur races related to the war of Lord Ironcrow?) you get a cutscene related to the main story.

But maybe I was a bit wrong. And the centaur rafcetrack puzzle does teach us new things about the game world and is therefore interesting. However, I still think games like Grim Fandango handle this so much better. And if I remember correctly the first Broken Sword was built very cleverly that way, too.

[Erwin_Br]

Even some professional adventure games are guilty of this. The (much mentioned) Broken Sword 3 crate puzzles, for example.

Anyone played Down in the Dumps? I always felt that 99% of the puzzles only served as a way to obstruct you from reaching the end of that game.

--Erwin